******************************************************************************* From MiataOwner@aol.com Sat Jun 22 07:46:27 2002 Subject: quota question To: webmaster@bigbendmiataclub.org CC: larry.ochalek@bigbendmiataclub.org, dbluefish@bigbendmiataclub.org Leon At the meeting the other night we were discussing this topic. Is the web site residing on the FSU servers? If so it's probably not a good idea, especially now if they are apparently restricting abilities. The club does appreciate the free service but, we don't want to get you in trouble or possibly lose the information on the site. I can give you space on my server (catalogonline.com) or if you'd more feel comfortable a free hosting site. Pop ups and ads of course is the problem there. Well you ponder that while wandering the highways of america. And I'll go ahead and see about configuring you separate storage facilities, just incase. You of course are the web master so it's your decision. Happy Motoring Stephen ******************************************************************************* From MiataOwner@aol.com Sun Jun 23 07:20:33 2002 Subject: boy you took that the wrong way To: dommelen@wombat.eng.fsu.edu Leon You took that the wrong way. Our intention, was for what is best for the club. The discussion came about as part of the offical club meeting. One of the officers thought the site was being hosted at FSU. Being as it is a very small club with limited finances I made an offer to donate space for free on my site. Your comment about limiting your emails was a good opportunity to bring it up. I didn't accuse you of stealing. But technically, isn't sending email via their servers doing just that? Have a good rest of your trip SP ******************************************************************************* From dommelen Mon Jun 24 21:20:24 2002 Subject: Re: boy you took that the wrong way To: MiataOwner@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 21:20:24 -0400 (EDT) Stephen, >You took that the wrong way. Our intention, was for what is best for the >club. The discussion came about as part of the offical club meeting. One of >the officers thought the site was being hosted at FSU. Which officer was that and why did he wait until I was gone to ask the question, and to people who did not know instead of by e-mail to me? > Being as it is a very >small club with limited finances I made an offer to donate space for free on >my site. Your comment about limiting your emails was a good opportunity to >bring it up. I didn't accuse you of stealing. But technically, isn't sending >email via their servers doing just that? No it is not. I do not steal. The things you can do at universities on the internet are a very murky area, since the universities took as their mission to educate people in the internet. Thus FSU gave students and faculty personal accounts with no restrictions specified on what they could do, except for "bad internet behavior." Students and faculty run personal web pages on all sorts of things on university accounts all over. Maybe eventually universities will restrict this, so far they have not. However, personally I felt that this was debatable, and opened an account with Netcom (which later merged with Mindspring and still later with Earthlink) for personal business. While I personally would find running a club web page from a university account inappropriate, it is doubtful that it would be illegal. Though the universities could ask me to stop. However, sending e-mail to the group is NOT inappropriate, for too many reasons to go into on a pay-per-minute line. For one thing, it does not require resources, and is there equivalent to making personal calls on a university phone; allowed if costs are reimbursed. For another, I do not need the university resources: the mailing list worked perfectly well from Earthlink, where the chat list still is. I moved the big mailing list to COE ONLY to hide the addresses from viruses and SPAMMERS. The universities, when entering the internet, made a very clear legal commitment to assist in keeping the internet clear of viruses and abuse. Hence they would have no legal option to stop me even if they wanted to. >Have a good rest of your trip I will if I do not end up in jail for theft. :) Leon >SP > Leon van Dommelen -- NON-PRIVACY NOTICE: I regularly quote E-mail I receive to third parties. E-mailing me indicates consent of those terms. Full details are at http://www.eng.fsu.edu/~dommelen/privacy.html ******************************************************************************* From MiataOwner@aol.com Mon Jun 24 22:19:07 2002 Subject: leon leon leon To: dommelen@wombat.eng.fsu.edu Dude you need to chill. I will not tell you specifically who expressed concern. It is unimportant the rest of the members also expressed concern. It was an open meeting not an officers meeting so anything can be discussed. I at that time made an offer I have since taken back in a letter to Larry and Paul because of your hostile attitude. I do not have the time or effort to educate you in my field of expertise. Junior you need to get a life, you've been driving alone toooooooooo long. So Leon why don't you just enjoy your trip and take this up when you get back. It's a non issue to me I don't care. Whatever Stephen ******************************************************************************* From dommelen Tue Jun 25 22:35:06 2002 Subject: Re: leon leon leon To: chatlist@bigbendmiataclub.org writes, > >Dude you need to chill. > >I will not tell you specifically who expressed concern. Good. I do not respond to hearsay, so next time, do not tell me AT ALL. I have no problem with certain elements slandering me behind my back; it is only when they do so in my face that I need to waste my time trying to set the record straight. > It is unimportant the >rest of the members also expressed concern. The rest of the members was not present, according to my information. Though SOME members may have been present. So you at the minimum misrepresent this point. > It was an open meeting not an >officers meeting so anything can be discussed. Even members behind their backs, yes. It is legal, even if unethical. >I at that time made an offer I >have since taken back in a letter to Larry and Paul because of your hostile >attitude. I did not have a hostile attitude. If a person with a hostile attitude accuses me of being a thief, I respond. Correcting mistakes is NOT hostile. However, I DO have a hostile attitude now. >I do not have the time or effort to educate you in my field of expertise. >Junior you need to get a life, you've been driving alone toooooooooo long. > >So Leon why don't you just enjoy your trip and take this up when you get >back. It's a non issue to me I don't care. > >Whatever >Stephen First you accuse me of stealing, implying at the same time that you saw nothing wrong with me being slandered behind my back. Incorrectly. When I correct this slander, you accuse me from being hostile. In addition you call me Junior, in a clear attempt to be derogatory. I too do not care, because I no longer take you seriously. I am forwarding this to the chat list since you are implying them in slandering me behind my back. I do not do things behind other peoples backs myself. Please do not e-mail me personally again. Leon van Dommelen -- NON-PRIVACY NOTICE: I regularly quote E-mail I receive to third parties. E-mailing me indicates consent of those terms. Full details are at http://www.eng.fsu.edu/~dommelen/privacy.html ******************************************************************************* From owner-bbchat@dommelen.net Wed Jun 26 10:42:13 2002 From: Brian Flager To: "Big Bend Miata Chat Big Bend Miata Chat" Subject: [BB Chat] RE: leon leon leon Leon- I was at the last meeting and was involved in the discussion. In no way was anyone accusing anyone of anything. There was simply a concern of whether or not the club web site was hosted on an FSU server. We didn't want to jeopardize you in any way if hosting the site on an FSU server was not the best place for it. I read Steve's email and feel he approached it in a polite and respectful manner. No one should have any reason for ill feelings. There were no accusations. There was no intention of talking behind someone's back. It was simply a concern that was brought up. If the web site is not on FSU's servers then that's super. You have to realize we all don't have any knowledge of the web site or its location so it was just a question of how it was setup. Please do not harbor any angry feelings and enjoy the rest of your vacation. We can all discuss the issue at hand again at our next meeting and get this resolved. From: Leon van Dommelen [mailto:dommelen@wombat.eng.fsu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 10:40 AM To: Big Bend Miata Chat Subject: [BB Chat] Summary OK, let me try to summarize this. During the last meeting, the only one a year in which Leon is absent, "an officer", hiding behind anonymity, felt it appropriate to bring up Leon's thieving, and how it could affect the club operations. Among those present, none felt the need to say: "Gee, I have known Leon for a couple of years and he does not look like a thief to me. Do you think that maybe we should *ask* him?" In fact, Leon's moral character was so obviously lacking that none of the older members would even think to suggest that the fact that the club web page started out as http://www.dommelen.net/bigbend might suggest it was hosted on Leon's private account. It was so obvious that Leon was robbing the state that measures were decided on to safeguard the club and Leon was kindly informed of those measures through e-mail. Next Leon's incompetence as webmaster was discussed, and in particular his obvious failure to keep back-ups of the club files. Nobody of course wasted his time to say: "Gee, Leon looks a pretty intelligent guy to me? He is a professor of mechanical engineering? Do you think he has no clue about disk failures? Do you think that maybe we should ask him first?" Does that summarize it, or was my hairstyle also discussed? Then when Leon sets the record straight, he is called "hostile" and personal remarks are directed at his person. Just making sure we are all on the same wave length. Leon -- Leon Van Dommelen FAMU-FSU College of Engineering dommelen@eng.fsu.edu Department of Mechanical Engineering http://www.eng.fsu.edu/~dommelen 2525 Pottsdamer St, Room 229 (850) 410 6324 Office: 6331 FAX: 6337 Tallahassee, FL 32310-6046 ******************************************************************************* From owner-bbchat@dommelen.net Wed Jun 26 11:09:06 2002 From: Brian Flager To: "Big Bend Miata Chat" Subject: [BB Chat] RE: Summary The facts: -No one is hiding. If you want the attendee list we'll provide it. -No one brought up the word "thief" AT ALL. No one mentioned anything about "stealing". -The only concern was where the web site was actually hosted. -EVERYONE at the meeting said they were all appreciative of Leon's webmastering and other contributions to the club. We all know you personally fund the domain name and upkeep, and are grateful for the presence it gives the club on the internet. -A person cannot assume that just because the original web site was at dommelen.net/bigbend that it was or was not a private web site. Case in point: Doesn't the current domain name "bigbendmiataclub" point back to dommelen.net/bigbend anyway? Therefore domain name redirects tell nothing of where a site is. Thus the original curiosity. -At the meeting Steve offered to ask in an email; the intention was not to avoid asking face-to-face. A answer was desired soon and since you were on vacation and we knew you were checking email, it seemed logical. -No one questioned your competence regarding site maintenance and backups. A follow up question was simply "hey what happens if the server crashes? is the site backed up?" -No your hairstyle wasn't brought up. -The only reason the word "hostile" was brought up as far as I can tell is that your original response did not give Steve the benefit of the doubt of simply being inquisitive. You assumed someone accused you of theiving FSU and thus the counter-response jumped to being angered, too. ******************************************************************************* From owner-bbchat@dommelen.net Wed Jun 26 11:45:21 2002 From: MiataOwner@aol.com To: Big Bend Miata Chat Here is the original letter. I appreciate the clear support I have received on this matter. "quota" refers an apparent restriction of the quanitiy of email leon was sending. He can explain I do not know those details, nor care to. LETTER BELOW AS COPIED FROM MY AOL EMAIL Subj: quota question Date: 6/22/2002 6:03:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: MiataOwner To: webmaster@bigbendmiataclub.org CC: larry.ochalek@bigbendmiataclub.org CC: dbluefish@bigbendmiataclub.org Leon At the meeting the other night we were discussing this topic. Is the web site residing on the FSU servers? If so it's probably not a good idea, especially now if they are apparently restricting abilities. The club does appreciate the free service but, we don't want to get you in trouble or possibly lose the information on the site. I can give you space on my server (catalogonline.com) or if you'd more feel comfortable a free hosting site. Pop ups and ads of course is the problem there. Well you ponder that while wandering the highways of america. And I'll go ahead and see about configuring you separate storage facilities, just incase. You of course are the web master so it's your decision. Happy Motoring Stephen ******************************************************************************* From DBluefish@aol.com Thu Jun 27 09:01:48 2002 Subject: Re: [BB Chat] Summary To: dommelen@wombat.eng.fsu.edu Man you sure got your hair in a mousetrap over this, my friend. As far as I remember, there were NO accusations of thievery made against you. The jist of the conversation was that if indeed the dtate was cracking down on personal use of the internet, then possibly, if Leon's time was at risk, we could look elsewhere, and the elsewhere was Stephen's offer. As far as I remember it, no one said you lacked either intelligence or moral integrity, in fact to the contrary. Because you or anyone of the members are absent does not preclude our talking about a subject. As I know you know, this is usually done with humor and a sensitivity to the person's feelings. We felt bad you were not there but the subject was computer time vis a vis the state. Maybe we failed to understand your set-up but that is only human. I think and I know most of the folks think, including Stephen, that you do a great job. That there could be some changes to make it all work better is also a possibility, and I think you would agree to that. That Stephen my have overstepped or been perceived as overstepping, may be true but then I have been a butthead a few times myself. I seriously think Stephen was trying to be helpful and I think everyone felt that way but it may have come across differently. But this state of attacks and feelings of threats and disharmony are disturbing to say the least and serve no one well. I am NOT President yet so this is Larry's baby. But if I were dictator for the day I would require that we all go for a dip in some cold water and sit down and talk this out honestly and clear the damn air. If that cannot be done then I sure do not want to be associated with the club. We do fun things and we try to make the club grow and you are the glue that holds it together in many ways but you and I and Roger and the rest are but merely human and we had better start remembering that. So smile for me as I beat your butt at the races, remember to take most of this with a grain of salt, and have a great time out there on the road. Its funny but maybe in the end this whole affair will make us stronger. So, in peace, I say travel well and keep the rubber side down. paul ******************************************************************************* From owner-bbchat@dommelen.net Thu Jun 27 21:40:07 2002 From: Leon van Dommelen To: Big Bend Miata Chat Subject: [BB Chat] Re: Summary DBluefish@aol.com wrote: >Man you sure got your hair in a mousetrap over this, my friend. As far as I >remember, there were NO accusations of thievery made against you. The jist >of the conversation was that if indeed the dtate was cracking down on >personal use of the internet, then possibly, if Leon's time was at risk, we >could look elsewhere, and the elsewhere was Stephen's offer. As far as I >remember it, no one said you lacked either intelligence or moral integrity, >in fact to the contrary. > >Because you or anyone of the members are absent does not preclude our talking >about a subject. As I know you know, this is usually done with humor and a >sensitivity to the person's feelings. We felt bad you were not there but >the subject was computer time vis a vis the state. Maybe we failed to >understand your set-up but that is only human. > >I think and I know most of the folks think, including Stephen, that you do a >great job. That there could be some changes to make it all work better is >also a possibility, and I think you would agree to that. That Stephen my >have overstepped or been perceived as overstepping, may be true but then I >have been a butthead a few times myself. I seriously think Stephen was >trying to be helpful and I think everyone felt that way but it may have come >across differently. > >But this state of attacks and feelings of threats and disharmony are >disturbing to say the least and serve no one well. I am NOT President yet >so this is Larry's baby. But if I were dictator for the day I would require >that we all go for a dip in some cold water and sit down and talk this out >honestly and clear the damn air. If that cannot be done then I sure do not >want to be associated with the club. > >We do fun things and we try to make the club grow and you are the glue that >holds it together in many ways but you and I and Roger and the rest are but >merely human and we had better start remembering that. So smile for me as I >beat your butt at the races, remember to take most of this with a grain of >salt, and have a great time out there on the road. Its funny but maybe in >the end this whole affair will make us stronger. > >So, in peace, I say travel well and keep the rubber side down. > >paul Well, now that I have downloaded all messages and finally can look at them carefully, here is my final word. 1) I was E-mailed whether the web site was hosted illegally on FSU ("we don't want to get you in trouble") and hence that I was stealing ("I didn't accuse you of stealing. But technically, isn't sending email via their servers doing just that?") I was not just asked *where* the club site was, or even *whether it was on the FSU servers* (clearly a theft of resources), but a *solution* to this dilemma had already been formulated. This suggests to me that the participants thought it quite likely that I was indeed stealing the club resources, and in particular from FSU. ("One of the officers thought the site was being hosted at FSU.") If it does not suggest this to you, I do not know where you are coming from, I do not want to know. What *I* think is what concerns me. 2) The comment "possibly lose the information on the site" is the equivalent of asking a surgeon whether he cleans his tools before surgery. It is just a slap in the face. ("A follow up question was simply 'hey what happens if the server crashes? is the site backed up?'") 3) If I was stealing from FSU or not keeping back-ups, I would have done so successfully for two years now and there was no urgent need to formulate an immediate plan of action. The discussion could have been postponed until I was again present next month. Or, if it really was so urgent, the "concerned officer" (I have another name) still hiding behind anonymity could have e-mailed me *before* the meeting with his concerns, so that an *informed* discussion could have been done during the meeting. It is the fact that all of this was done quite deliberately behind my back that leaves the worst taste in my mouth of the entire mess. However, upon rereading the various responses less hurriedly off-line, it is clear that the various people did not really recognize that what they were *really* saying is: "You are a thief and an incompetent." In fact, it seems to me that most people still not recognize this, to me very obvious, point. I guess the reason is that there are probably zillions of people stealing from their employers and setting up web pages with so little experience with computers that they think they can hope for the best with the back-ups. It was probably not reasonable for me to expect that you would know better about me from your very limited knowledge of me. In that respect, I admit I may have been overly critical, and I apologize for that. Note however, that the phrase "gossiping old wives" is somewhat engraved into my mind. I really spend a considerable amount of time on maintaining the web site and taking care of this and that, and I would have *no trouble* finding an alternate worthwhile occupation for that time if I decide it is a better idea. The discussion is closed as far as I am concerned. Leon -- Leon Van Dommelen FAMU-FSU College of Engineering dommelen@eng.fsu.edu Department of Mechanical Engineering http://www.eng.fsu.edu/~dommelen 2525 Pottsdamer St, Room 229 (850) 410 6324 Office: 6331 FAX: 6337 Tallahassee, FL 32310-6046 ******************************************************************************* From SockmanR@dol.state.fl.us Fri Jun 28 08:24:28 2002 To: "'Leon van Dommelen'" Subject: RE: [BB Chat] Re: Summary Leon, I agree that you made some good points. I agree we need to end this discussion because it has disrupted the club too much already. As for Paul, he also made some good points and will look forward to all of us sitting down at someone's home when Leon returns to Tall. to talk this thing out. RTS. ******************************************************************************* From DBluefish@aol.com Fri Jun 28 08:31:38 2002 Subject: Re: [BB Chat] Re: Summary To: dommelen@wombat.eng.fsu.edu Well as you say in America we are entitled to disagree, so it is done with. Hope your trip has nothing but sunny skies and grand adventures. paul ******************************************************************************* From owner-bbchat@dommelen.net Fri Jun 28 09:10:37 2002 From: MiataOwner@aol.com Subject: [BB Chat] What shall we call the new miata club? To: Big Bend Miata Chat My suggestions is "Canopy Roads Miata Club. I've had it, the whole situation with Leon, the web master at the Big Bend Miata Club, has left a bad taste in my mouth. Rather than persuing legal action over something that was supposed to be fun. I hear by offically resign as a member of the Big Bend Miata Club. I will be seriously entertaining the idea of the formation of a new miata club. Happy Motoring Stephen Parrott ******************************************************************************* From dommelen Tue Jul 9 22:51:46 2002 Subject: Re: Please Post To: DBluefish@aol.com , > >At the next meeting of the members, I suggest the following: > >1. Some clarification for actions taken now and in the future. Do we need >all members/officers present or a quorum? > >2. Some clarification for the responsibilities for each officer. > >3. A formal apology is needed from some of the members I agree with this observation. From all hose present at the last meeting. Whether I will get it is unknown. What is your gripe? I will post your remarks when I am back. Leon >4. Until I am officially President, and without the above I will resign, Personally I have not yet made that decision. > the >presiding President or their designee, call Buckheads to make sure our room >is ready! > >Without the above, I believe we will have future issues and I for one would >like to see them addressed if possible, before they become a problem. > >SUGGESTIONS SUGGESTIONS SUGGESTIONS for how we might run the club a little >smoother and get everyone on board in a positive way. > >Thanks > Leon van Dommelen -- NON-PRIVACY NOTICE: I regularly quote E-mail I receive to third parties. E-mailing me indicates consent of those terms. Full details are at http://www.eng.fsu.edu/~dommelen/privacy.html ******************************************************************************* From dommelen Tue Jul 9 23:33:43 2002 Subject: please forward To: larry.ochalek@bigbendmiataclub.org (Larry), sockmanr@bigbendmiataclub.org (Roger), brian.flager@bigbendmiataclub.org (Brian), dbluefish@bigbendmiataclub.org (Paul) Hi Chatters, Here is a message from Paul, with my comments. Leon ******************************************************************************* From DBluefish@aol.com Wed Jul 10 10:13:02 2002 Subject: Re: Please Post To: dommelen@wombat.eng.fsu.edu my gripe so far is that I believe from what has been seen, that you might have over-reacted. I do not know the deep throat here but Susan and I saw none of what you claimed and your responses to Stephen and whoever else got it was out of line. That is my opinion and is probably not shared by others but an airing will clear the air so we can move on, each to their own "drummer". I still enjoy everyone's company but this last bit of stuff has soured our participation for the future and the Presidency, who knows at this point. Hope your trip was fun and filled with great times and see you at the next meeting. paul ******************************************************************************* From DBluefish@aol.com Wed Jul 10 10:19:59 2002 Subject: Re: please forward To: dommelen@wombat.eng.fsu.edu Sorry I did not read this message first but from what I have seen, you accused member/members of things that to my knowledge were false and did not occur. Thus I feel it is your apology I seek and Stephen and anyone else who feels aggrieved. I have no information that I said or implied ANYTHING that I need to apologize for. If you have other info please share it at the meeting. I said before that I did not hear what you implied was said at the meeting and neither did Susan or Stephen to name two others who were there. Roger and Larry and Grian and Liz can speak for themselves. It is not fun to have this hanging oth there. As to your "have not decided" yet, if you were implying a vote for me, thanks, nut no thanks. If anyone wants the job they can have it. I received some votes, the nomination is up in the air, and so I will await the official pleasure of the group and the official laying to rest of this whole affair. I hope I do not sound mean spirited or officious as that is not my intent. I am a strong personality as are several other members of the club. I mean only the best but at this stage, you appear to me to be the one out of line. In peace paul ******************************************************************************* From dommelen Thu Jul 11 10:44:30 2002 Subject: Re: please forward (fwd) To: chatlist@bigbendmiataclub.org >From DBluefish@aol.com Wed Jul 10 10:19:59 2002 [snip snip] >meeting and neither did Susan or Stephen to name two others who were there. >Roger and Larry and Grian and Liz can speak for themselves. Thanks for the attendance list. I am somewhat relieved to see only four members were involved in this affair. Leon van Dommelen -- NON-PRIVACY NOTICE: I regularly quote E-mail I receive to third parties. E-mailing me indicates consent of those terms. Full details are at http://www.eng.fsu.edu/~dommelen/privacy.html ******************************************************************************* From dommelen Thu Jul 11 11:14:10 2002 Subject: Re: please forward (fwd) To: dbluefish@bigbendmiataclub.org (Paul), larry.ochalek@bigbendmiataclub.org (Larry), sockmanr@bigbendmiataclub.org (Roger), brian.flager@bigbendmiataclub.org (Brian), miataowner@bigbendmiataclub.org Forwarded message: >From DBluefish@aol.com Wed Jul 10 10:19:59 2002 >Subject: Re: please forward >To: dommelen@wombat.eng.fsu.edu > >Sorry I did not read this message first but from what I have seen, you >accused member/members of things that to my knowledge were false and did not >occur. Thus I feel it is your apology I seek and Stephen and anyone else >who feels aggrieved. As per your instructions, I will then include in the notice about next week's meeting that you are resigning. Do you still want to place the procedural matters 1, 2, and 4 on the agenda? > I have no information that I said or implied ANYTHING >that I need to apologize for. If you have other info please share it at the >meeting. I said before that I did not hear what you implied was said at the >meeting and neither did Susan or Stephen to name two others who were there. >Roger and Larry and Grian and Liz can speak for themselves. Thanks for the attendance list. I am somewhat relieved that this unsavory affair was limited to only a handful of people. >It is not fun to have this hanging oth there. > >As to your "have not decided" yet, if you were implying a vote for me, >thanks, nut no thanks. If anyone wants the job they can have it. I >received some votes, the nomination is up in the air, and so I will await the >official pleasure of the group and the official laying to rest of this whole >affair. > >I hope I do not sound mean spirited or officious as that is not my intent. >I am a strong personality as are several other members of the club. I mean >only the best but at this stage, you appear to me to be the one out of line. > >In peace > >paul Each of you five will have to decide what you want to do at next weeks meeting out of three possibilities. 1) You can be a man and say something like, "Leon, I am sorry that when this talk about the web page started, I should have immediately said: 'The web page is Leon's business. We should have this discussion when Leon is present, not behind his back.'. And when the suggestion was made that the web page might be hosted inappropriately on FSU servers, which could be taken as an implicit accussation of theft behind your back, I should of course have said: 'We should *really* continue this conversation with Leon present.' And when it was suggested that Leon might not even keep backups, I should have said: 'We should really, really, really, wait with this conversation until Leon is present.'. And of course, it was a tactical blunder to come over as notifying you about web page suggestions that were made behind your back, as if you are a paid employee to be ordered around." 2) You can take your cue from Leon's final e-mail on the subject that he considers the case closed and let things lie. 3) You can act as a child. You can add to what you already did remarks about Leon's person. Or you can rediculously try to paint off this problem in ethics and appropriate behavior as instead a problem in *club procedures*, and from there argue that club procedures were not violated. You can huff and puff, whine and resign, and demand that the *victim* apologizes. You can try stout denial of the facts. You can put the appropriateness of what you did to a majority vote of the *perpretrators*. You can throw a thousand other verbal smokescreens to prop up your cardboard facade of self-esteem. I should however urge some caution with possibility three. I do not threaten, but I do warn that you might not like the results. I do not handle deliberate stupidity well. Anyway, I am looking forward to the meeting with considerable interest. Leon van Dommelen -- NON-PRIVACY NOTICE: I regularly quote E-mail I receive to third parties. E-mailing me indicates consent of those terms. Full details are at http://www.eng.fsu.edu/~dommelen/privacy.html ******************************************************************************* From MiataOwner@aol.com Thu Jul 11 11:39:23 2002 Subject: Re: [BB Chat] Re: please forward (fwd) To: dommelen@wombat.eng.fsu.edu Sorry to bother you but I have a question Who specifically are the 4 members you mention as being involved? Stephen ******************************************************************************* From dommelen Thu Jul 11 22:56:45 2002 Subject: Re: [BB Chat] Re: please forward (fwd) To: MiataOwner@aol.com , > >Sorry to bother you but I have a question > >Who specifically are the 4 members you mention as being involved? > >Stephen Those present. According to Paul, Roger, Larry, Brian, Paul. And you of course. Obviously this Liz has nothing to do with the matter as a new member who does not know me. Leon van Dommelen -- NON-PRIVACY NOTICE: I regularly quote E-mail I receive to third parties. E-mailing me indicates consent of those terms. Full details are at http://www.eng.fsu.edu/~dommelen/privacy.html ******************************************************************************* From DBluefish@aol.com Fri Jul 12 08:23:51 2002 Subject: Re: please forward (fwd) To: dommelen@wombat.eng.fsu.edu CC: stockmanr@dol.state.fl.us, miataowner@bigbendmiataclub.org are you threatening me or others in the group that attended the meeting? Wow so this is where it is at. Well I do not look forward to the meeting at all now. Sorry Leaon but I still believe you are out of line here and in your earlier messages. ******************************************************************************* From SockmanR@dol.state.fl.us Fri Jul 12 08:27:18 2002 To: "Sockman, Roger" , "'MiataOwner@aol.com'" Cc: "'ochalek@bigbenmiataclub.org'" , "'deflorio@bigbendmiataclub.org'" , "'flagger@bigbendmiataclub.org'" , "'vandomelen@bigbendmiataclub.org'" Subject: RE: What is your opinion of all of this. -----Original Message----- From: Sockman, Roger Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 9:28 AM To: 'MiataOwner@aol.com' Subject: RE: What is your opinion of all of this. Stephen, I am glad you have changed your mind and decided to stay as a member of BBMC. I don't think it would be a good thing at this point in the short history of the local club to have someone try and go off to start another local Miata club. Lets try to build on what we have already started with BBMC. I, myself, value you input as a member and your contributions to the club (i.e. the parade banners). I would prefer if you would hold off relaying any comments you may receive until the meeting on July 18 at the Buckhead. This way, everyone will be in the room in person (including Leon) and can air their opinions in an orderly fashion. I have another meeting that night and won't be there until 7:00, so I ask everyone not to start until I arrive, if that is possible. My only concern here is that if we have any new members present, it could embarrass them and maybe scare them off. I have talked to Paul and Larry about waiting until our July meeting to air this all out, and both agree this is when it should be done. If you would like to call me at home this weekend, feel free at 850-422-2703. RTS. -----Original Message----- From: MiataOwner@aol.com [mailto:MiataOwner@aol.com] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 12:29 AM To: larry.ochalek@bigbendmiataclub.org; sockmanr@bigbendmiataclub.org; brian.flager@bigbendmiataclub.org Subject: What is your opinion of all of this. Gentlemen I'm sure you know my opinion. I asked a question and have been slandered for way to long as a result. I tryed to resign and was asked to stay, so here I am. I want to know your opinions. Is this the kind of officer or for that matter member we want in the club? Threats? Intimadation? Insults? Calling the members stupid? Is it just me (and a couple other members), but are you sick of Leons hostile attitude as well? No one accused him of anything. I am aware of what he has contributed but is it worth all of this? Website registration $75 monthly cost $10. Whew I spent at least that on parade banners and color flyers for the club. I certainly can take over the web site. It'll make it easier to add exciting things like video and member pages. Pictures well the membership needs to take pictures of events anyway, we all need to get involved. So gentlemen as officers of the BigBendMiataClub are you going to support this kind of action from a member much less an officer of the club? I really would like your opinions, feel free to sound off either to me or about me. If you want call me, 229 227 0477 day or night , long distance bother you, I'll call you back. I really am interested adn would like to know before the meeting. ******************************************************************************* From dommelen Sat Jul 13 14:48:50 2002 Subject: Re: please forward (fwd) To: dbluefish@bigbendmiataclub.org (Paul), larry.ochalek@bigbendmiataclub.org (Larry), sockmanr@bigbendmiataclub.org (Roger), brian.flager@bigbendmiataclub.org (Brian), miataowner@bigbendmiataclub.org Please use correct e-mails Forwarded message: >From DBluefish@aol.com Fri Jul 12 08:23:51 2002 >Subject: Re: please forward (fwd) >To: dommelen@wombat.eng.fsu.edu >CC: stockmanr@dol.state.fl.us, miataowner@bigbendmiataclub.org > >are you threatening me or others in the group that attended the meeting? No. >Wow so this is where it is at. Well I do not look forward to the meeting at >all now. Sorry Leaon but I still believe you are out of line here and in >your earlier messages. Sorry, but I believe you five have been out of line starting from the last meeting and getting worse from there on. Leon van Dommelen -- NON-PRIVACY NOTICE: I regularly quote E-mail I receive to third parties. E-mailing me indicates consent of those terms. Full details are at http://www.eng.fsu.edu/~dommelen/privacy.html ******************************************************************************* From dommelen Mon Jul 15 20:07:34 2002 Subject: Agenda meeting Thursday To: larry.ochalek@bigbendmiataclub.org (Larry), sockmanr@bigbendmiataclub.org (Roger), brian.flager@bigbendmiataclub.org (Brian), dbluefish@bigbendmiataclub.org (Paul) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:07:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] Content-Length: 1564 Status: OR Attached is the agenda for the club meeting this Thursday. Please indicate additional items. ========= Please join us for the club meeting Thursday at the Buckhead Brewery, Capital Circle NE. Agenda: 1) Resignation of Chairperson Paul De Florio 2) Club meeting procedures 3) Starting at 7 pm: Discussion of the case of Van Dommelen vs De Florio, Flager, Ochalek, Parrott, and Sockman. This will consist of three parts: (a) Objective examination of facts. (b) Free-form discusssion of views. (c) Discussion of practical issues consequential of the discussion in (b). The meeting starts at 6 pm though Sockman and Van Dommelen will be joining at 7. All parts are open to any interested Miata enthusiast. Leon van Dommelen -- NON-PRIVACY NOTICE: I regularly quote E-mail I receive to third parties. E-mailing me indicates consent of those terms. Full details are at http://www.eng.fsu.edu/~dommelen/privacy.html ******************************************************************************* From DBluefish@aol.com Tue Jul 16 08:44:36 2002 Subject: Re: Agenda meeting Thursday To: dommelen@wombat.eng.fsu.edu CC: sockmanr@dol.state.fl.us You are a most amusing person . My resignation, may or may not be an issue as the resolution of your part in this mess has to be discussed first. Objective evaluation of the facts? You are dreaming. We will try and wait and maybe, just maybe, you will present the "objective" data to support your misstatemnts of fact. But I suggest you come prepared to apologize to the rest of us. I will be prepared to eat humble pie but so far you have shown me nothing but "anonymous" sources. Richard Nixon could not have done better. paul ps : I spoke to Buckheads and they have us in their book for this Thursday at 6pm. It did not appear that they had a standing order for us to be there! ******************************************************************************* From dommelen Mon Jul 22 13:26:21 2002 Subject: Re: FW: [BB Chat] E-mail list update To: SockmanR@dol.state.fl.us (Sockman, Roger) Sockman, Roger , > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Sockman, Roger >Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 9:18 AM >To: 'dommelen@wobat.eng.fsu.edu' >Subject: RE: [BB Chat] E-mail list update > > >Leon, I don't know who your trusted witness is as to what went on at the >June meeting, but you have got a lot of facts wrong on your version on the >BBMC web site. The first e-mail from Stephen, that you posted yesterday, >explains that whole situation, that he merely ask you where the web site was >hosted. Misrepresentation 1 by Sockman. The e-mail contains: >Is the web site residing on the FSU servers? If so it's probably not >a good idea, especially now if they are apparently restricting >abilities. That is not just a question where the web site is located, but a suggestion it MAY be hosted on the FSU servers. > Stephen, or no one else at that meeting, accused you of anything. Misrepresentation 2 by Sockman. The word "accused" is NOWHERE in my description. My description implies that the five implied I MAY be stealing from FSU. Which is EXACTLY what happened, by your own repeated admissions. >If fact, you even admit you were praised for your website efforts and >contributions you have made at the June meeting. This is irrelevant. It is common practice to praise the person you are sticking a knife in the back in. It makes the other thing you are saying seem more objective. > By posting your response >is an embarrassment to the club and a poor effort in public relations for >BBMC. Excuse me. I am commenting on what happened in a public meeting, what was discussed in a public forum and what resulted in the very public fact of me withdrawing from the club and terminating the web site. The other members, and prospective members, have A RIGHT to know what happened, and the character of three (now four) of the officers they associate with. It is YOUR FIVE'S BEHAVIOR that has embarrassed and continuous to embarrass the club. I suggest you take a look in the mirror. If you dare. > As an officer of the club, I am asking you to remove this information >to protect the integrity and positive attitude of the club. As a nonmember, and someone who no longer likes you, I laugh in your face. > If need be, >please take down the bigbendmiataclub.org web site COMPLETELY so that this >issue does not get any more exposure to those not affected. This matter is >hurting the club's reputation and needs to be discarded immediately! It is you who have hurted the club's reputation by your behavior and your refusal to step down from the club in disgrace after what you did. I and any of you five have nothing further to discuss. You have had sufficient opportunities to apologize. I will no longer accept any. > Please >remove your comments of the situation, all other responses, or please shut >down the BBMC web site immediately. Refused. > I am only sending this request to YOU >and not to the BBMC chat list or other officers. You have had countless e-mails from me that have sported my nonprivacy policy: >NON-PRIVACY NOTICE: I regularly quote E-mail I receive to third >parties. E-mailing me indicates consent of those terms. Full details >are at http://www.eng.fsu.edu/~dommelen/privacy.html This e-mail will be added to the lists of e-mails on the web site. > I trust you will comply >today. Your trust is based on a lack of mental capability. > RTS. Mr. Sockman, this letter is it. It is STILL ANOTHER ATTEMPT to blame me, the victim, for what happened, using misrepresented facts. I am not going to argue with you anymore. I stand by what I posted as fair. In addition, you were offered a chance to post your own version of events alongside mine and refused. DO NOT CONTACT ME ANYMORE. The thought of you makes me sick, and I will no longer read any of your communications. Dr. Van Dommelen -- NON-PRIVACY NOTICE: I regularly quote E-mail I receive to third parties. E-mailing me indicates consent of those terms. Full details are at http://www.eng.fsu.edu/~dommelen/privacy.html ******************************************************************************* From SockmanR@dol.state.fl.us Tue Jul 23 07:50:05 2002 To: "'Dr. Leon VanDommelen'" Subject: RE: FW: [BB Chat] E-mail list update Leon, I did not send you that e-mail yesterday to have you say that you want to laugh in my face or judge my mental capabilities. I respect you highly as a PhD. professor of engineering at a major university and I expect you to treat me that same, from one adult to another. I am asking you once again, since you are now a non-member of BBMC and no longer the webmaster, to please shut down the BBMC web site at once. The Big Bend Miata Club name is registered with the national Miata Owners Club and is not yours or anyone else's property, only the name is chartered with MOC. I don't care if you like me anymore or care to associate with me, but please take down the BBMC web site and keep the bigbendmiataclub.org registration in your private file for as long as you like. I am trusting that you will do this today. RTS. *******************************************************************************